Photo By Andrew Strobridge
For original conversation see
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=14070&post=69018&uid=201824730826#post69018
(replies will follow)
Contemplating Christianity’s Concept of “God”
Me:
Hey Guys I’m just reading about Buddhism and all its ins and outs
but i got some questions and comments. I am a Christian just so thats clear but
I don’t want to come across as an attacker I’m simply curious and want to share
my world view.
Cory said in his first post – In Christianity, their belief is that “God” is the creator and teacher of man.
Yet it’s wrong for man (the student) to question his teachings. His words are law. Doesn’t this not make “God” a teacher, but a dictator?
Famous proverb says “He who asks a question is a fool for a minute; he who does not remains a fool forever.”
Me:
I’ve never experienced or heard of it as wrong to question God. I have heard of trust,
faith and a respecting fear of God like you would a good Father and In the end we all know laws are there to protect and guide you, there’s nothing wrong with that.
So to say God is more of a dictator is simply wrong because dictators punish, mislead and suppress those who break laws but God/Jesus offers forgiveness and healing.
I believe we have the right to freely question and ponder life, in fact I believe God wants us to. Which is why we have the bible. The bible which is like 85% eye witness stories, filled with wisdom you cant deny.
It encourages wisdom and understanding and discourages foolishness, read proverbs.
Bobby you said:
When thinking about the Abrahamic religions and their version of god I like to think of this quote.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
Epicurus – Greek philosopher, BC 341-270
Me:
The questions Epicurus should be asking is
Am ‘I’ willing to prevent evil, am ‘I’ willing and able.
The only thing necessary for evil to prevail is for a good man to do nothing and for that matter a normal
man to do evil.
See the Bible teaches that God made everything and he said it was good, he made man and he said it
was very good.. Then the Devil enters the Garden and the first thing he does..
causes Eve to Doubt.. the second thing he does is offer she become like God tricking her to eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil (have the knowledge of God)
Getting to my point though God gave us three things that I think will answer Epicurus.
Firstly he gave us dominium over this earth, It’s ours to use. Secondly he gave us the ability to
create, creativity our creators favorite thing. But Most importantly he gave us choice..
We choose, we Decide we choose right or wrong..
It’s really quite basic and It makes sense, I mean God wouldn’t be all that caring
and Fair if he took control of every situation in our lives. He’d be more like that dictator we spoke of earlier.
You see the bible says we (the christians) are like the workers of the field, we have
the responsibility to collect the harvest, we should stop evil with the strength and goodness God gives us.. So really its our responsibility not Gods..
You also said:
It’s good to keep in mind that most people in Abrahamic religions (Christians, Jewish, Islam)
are brought up in that lifestyle, as well as the Hindu faith etc. They are ingrained with those
beliefs since birth. Not to mention all the other things their parents teach. Buddhism on the other
hand is the opposite. We learn how to question everything with a “don’t know” mind.
(I don’t know where I’m going with this I’m just rambling).
Luckily for me I wasn’t brought up religious. Mother was Baptist, father was pentecostal but neither practiced.
It allowed me to question and read about all religions and say hey,,, This one is fulla crap, or hey this one makes sense.
Keep in mind everyone is born both unknowing and an atheist. It’s our upbringing that changes that.
Me:
Yes I was Brought up in that lifestyle and was given it’s teachings from a young age.
But luckily I wasn’t forced into the religion and nor was I brain washed into it.
I know this because the first time I accepted Jesus I just did it cos it seemed the right thing to do and
everyone else was doing it.. But! Years later I recommitted this time older and with more
consideration. I Felt God Working in me that Day and I see the results each day.
You see thats what it’s really about relationship, religion is a devils invention created for division and emptiness.
Cory you replied:
Do you think people follow blindly because of fear of what’s in the afterlife. That they want to believe that
there is a heavenly place to go to? So they “believe” just in case?
My answer: Yes Some do and they miss the whole point of it which is sad.
Dave said:
Cory, I think Bob hit it with the family traditional theory. Kids don’t usually think about their indoctrination
or beliefs at an early age and only those who begin to question are sometimes rewarded with other points of view.
The entire thing about fear is taught as part of a specific Dogma (system of beliefs) and carried over and engrained to
the point where even logic and reasoning can no longer overpower the belief. Going to Heaven and Hell are used today
as a tool by snake oil salesman to capture your dime. While I believe in them myself, both are here now…right infront
of us in the form of hate, greed, war and pain on one side and love, compassion and puppies on the other.
Dave I agree More Christians need to question more and open up there closed minds to better understand the world.
Bobby:
People believe because of fear, because of what they’ve been taught, because they need hope. etc.
To believe because of “just in case” is kinda dumb to me. If they are doing it just in case then what god are
they supposed to believe in? What if they die and find out that Odin or Zeus is the real god. Well then they are screwed.
People who believe because of fear is because they’ve been preached to about hell fire all their life.
As for a heavenly place? An eternity sitting at the foot of god? ETERNITY???? Eternity with the same people judging the
clothes they wore to church or judging because their daughter got pregnant out of wedlock?
One thing I’ve noticed that these people hate is when you know their books better than they do.
A lot of atheists are so because they have actually read the bible, the koran or what have you.
I’m not an Atheist by the way. I have my own idea of “god” but it’s subjective and pointless to talk about.
Me:
Haha Awesome man! You hit the nail on the head.
Believing just in case is dumb. I do wish people wouldn’t preach Hellfire though. As for eternity , you got it slightly wrong
once this world comes to an end God will create a new heaven and earth where we will live and no I don’t think it’s as simple as sitting
at his feet all day. This Life is a preparation for “Eternity”. Gods gonna want our skill and knowledge we gather here to
be put to use “up” there, we are storing up heavenly riches here on Earth. Also as a bonus he’s setting up heavenly mansions for us 
Also its hard to wrap your head around it but I don’t think time exists in heaven, Time is a dimension God lives outside of. He can view it in 3D probably lol.
As a side note don’t be fooled by the way media so wrongfully presents Christians. We’re not all judging and critical and
we’re not all little perfect two shoes we make mistakes we’re human.
Finally yes I read my bible many do it just takes some people a while.
Debra Kersey:
Absolute faith gives people comfort in an ever changing existence. Since human beings seem to be hard
wired to being curious and always searching for more of something, religion and faith gives them satisfaction
and allows them to live without going insane because they “don’t know/can’t know”.
Imagine having absolute faith that some higher power is always looking out for you, always on your side, etc..
Faith in God provides that and more. Christians in particular have faith that no matter what transgressions
they make against their tenants they can always be forgiven. How cool is that?
Sometimes wonder what it would be like.. : )
And then their are those human beings that love the mystery and derive their satisfaction from the search itself.
Imagine an existence without that search? Without the mystery of now. The beauty of always asking when? where? how? why?
Then there are those that just are……. : ) Where do they go? What do they see? Are they there?
Me:
Forgiveness were would we be without it? You say we are wired to be curious but I’d take it a step further.
Watched a video called everything is spiritual by Rob bell.. Amazing video! everyone should watch it. But one of the the
things he spoke about is how God is of the spirit and he made all the physical things of earth.
But then he “breathed” spirit into man. This makes us the only thing in the universe that is completely spiritual yet completely
physical at the same time. This blew a gasket in my brain cos it explains why we search for God and it explains why
we succumb to earthly desires..
Bobby Das’Unbekannte:
Well, The advanced course entails the philosophy that karma is nothing more than cause and effect.
It has nothing to do with “people getting what’s coming to them”. It’s unfortunately,
something one has to discover for themselves. Of course, a zen master can help.
Ana Pyxies:
Pity, I was hoping for a short FB course 
Yes, I agree each of us has to discover for themselves, not just the laws of karma, but the laws of everything.
Me:
Here’s one problem I have, correct me if I’m wrong but many of of your customs seem to be left rather loosely to own personal discovery and perception, which is alright but not exactly clever. A person new to faith needs guidance
or they just end up somewhere down the road in a lonely street. surely there needs to be some form of discipline.
We all need discipline or we’d never grow up. You know though shall not spare the Rod…
Karma to me seems just a little too random, I agree with what Debra says here about “what you sow you shall reap”
Debra Kersey:
Karma is just the mind working through habitual thought patterns. The patterns create emotion and actions that can be
either positive or negative or even somewhere in between. Bob is right: It is not retribution or reward, but simply the
natural order. Using the words “bad Karma” or “good Karma” is just an over simplification of the process. There really
is no “good karma” or” bad Karma”. The sayings “What goes around comes around” and “What you sow, so shall you reap” are
actually more accurate in the sense that your actions, and more importantly, the intention behind those actions determine
paths that eventually intermingle with other paths, and on and on through a complex matrix of events that an
ordinary mind can never hope to sort out. There is no beginning and no ending.
In the cycle of birth and death this becomes the root of everything. If you think you understand this, stop thinking! : )
Me:
Karma seems to say you’re here doing what you’re doing and thats ok. Just try not to mess up.
To sow and reap, (a bible reference, which by the way is what I’m basing all my comments on, The Bible) is more direct.
Cause and effect if you will. It suggests you should take action in what you do, you have the choice and control.
Where as Karma oppositely seems to govern you, putting everything out of your hands. now this seems appealing
but does it really make sense? I don’t know just a thought.
D.k. Schaefer:
Personally, I think the Christian God has nothing to do with Christianity as they state his existence.
Man has a habit of interpreting things according to his current standards of what is ‘normal’ in the society.
God is not a person, nor is it sentient. People personalize the universal force as “He” and place human standards
of what is right and wrong on it, then write about it according to what man wants as his/her reality.
Me:
But that is not what we as christians are doing or believe. God made us in his image, he knows the
number of hairs on our head, he knitted us together in the womb. He knows us all by name and has plans
for us to prosper and not to fail. Thats all scripture..
Truth is we can all believe what we want, and we’ll never resolve any of this in a debate..
We need to find whats real in our hearts and as I said to a friend of mine recently:
Christianity has never failed me, it purges all my doubts, fills all my spaces, completes my world and I learn more each and every day..
Much respect for you all I’ll stress again this is not a personal attack on anybody just sharing my world view.
P.S
Surely life here on earth is about more than feeding the dogs or even just being kind?
There’s gotta be something deeper, more spiritual, more personal, don’t you think?
I mean if everyone could become a little less self focused on, getting my life straight, making sure I get it all right or even straightening my hair at every mirror and instead focus on that guy over there, the man sitting next to you in class the poor the rich the everyone else, things will change. That’ll leave everybody fulfilled, so yes there is a lot to do here and now.
But what exactly brought us here and now and where exactly is it taking us?
Every story has a beginning and an ending and of course a plot but how will it end? Where will that take you?
Glen:
‘But what exactly brought us here and now’
what is the here and now?
‘Every story has a beginning and an ending and of course a plot but how will it end?’
Stories are things we make up in our heads. Reality isnt a story is it? Begiinings and endings are just ideas that have no real basis is reality.
Me:
I’m using the word story in the place of life so sorry let me rephrase that:
‘Every life has a beginning and an ending and of course a plot but how will it end?
and yes a story isn’t reality but past present and future are, we all have a past present and future.
Thats what I’m really saying here and although the future doesn’t exist yet, what we do now affects the future so it’s worth thinking about and acting towards.
But yeah lets not over complicate, you get the just of it..
Glen:
I agree, what we do now will effect the future. Any beliefs about after life are just added layers that just confuse and lead to over thinking and getting away from acting right now in the right way most of the time.
Did Jesus not say worry not about the future? thats what most religious people do, worry about the future. Im not saying im any different though.
I’m not saying worry about the future so much you forget the present on the contrary I’m saying we should make sure we choose correctly here and now, live correctly in the present so that in death we will come out victorious and from my point of view that means in heaven with our loving creator.
Is that such a horrible thing to say?
I’ll repeat my other comment from the other discussion:
I’m simply suggesting that what we do ‘here’ affects where death leaves us. Thats not fantasy thats a real question we all need to ask ourselves. Thats why according to the Bible I believe here and now is a preparation for eternity.
Glen:
when you say we are born and we die, what is born and what dies? what will go to heaven or eternity?
That fact is, for me at least, is all i really know is the present moment. Even that i cant really grasp. To believe in the Bible and eternity in some place other than right now is just a dream created all in my head.
Im not saying is 100% isnt true, but i have zero reason to believe so.
However, from my life up to now, i do know that my actions have effects. Not only on my being in the present but others also.
Me:
Awesome man.. look once again I’m just sharing my world view take it or leave it.
But I do believe the things I’m questioning here can’t be ignored you will one day end up in ‘life’ after death or whatever you want to call it. So Its cool that you’re reading about this stuff and challenging the ideas, I mean thats why I read this page in the first place to broaden my understanding.
To answer the question:
I believe we are created by God obviously. I also believe there are different realms/dimensions we live in, God is in the spiritual realm and we are in the physical. God perceives all parts of all dimensions we don’t.
But the bible says that God breathed spirit into us, which makes us spiritual beings in a physical world (thats what divides us from animals) So when we are born our spirits come to dwell in a unique body in a unique life for set a time (to prepare us for eternity) and when we die our spirit leaves the body to go back to the spiritual realm. Thats what I mean by born and die.
Now I know that sounds plain stupid and imaginative but when you’re living with that awareness (God) then you are no longer blinded by the inability to see past flesh and blood, you see spirit.
Its does seem stupid but being a Christian does go against all norms it’s always been like that.
As a side note get your hands on a copy of Rob Bells talk Everything is Spiritual thats explains a lot of what I’m trying to say. It also Compares scientific theories of multiple dimensions to the Idea of a spiritual realm.
Glen:
I’ve heard all that stuff before. Im not saying its not true.
It isnt something I believe in and you are correct, to me it is just imaginative. But I wouldn’t call it silly.
This is a Zen Buddhist page. The Buddhist teachings teach no soul, no fixed self.
This can be very confusing, even worrying to those who cling to the idea of a fixed substance such as an eternal never changing ‘spirit’.
The Buddha called this idea wrong view. Its a dilusion. When practicing meditation and looking deeply you come to question the idea of a sperate self. Am i the same person i was yesterday? am i the same person i was when i was 1 year old? i look totally different, all my cells in my body change, memories fade, ideas change, my hopes change, my mind is always change from moment to moment and non of this is seperate from the rest of the world. Once this physical body dies, i feel my actions may be passed on, my energy habits? heaven, hell? i don’t know.
But in Buddhism the Bodhisattva ideal is to help all beings, help allbeings suffer less by being selfless. Or rather by seeing deeply the true nature of reality which is ‘just as it is’ and is free of concepts of ‘you’ and me, self, no self, birth, death…all these things are concepts and labels, not reality ‘as it is’.
Darryl:
Haha thats interesting because to me what you’re saying sounds neither here nor there, a bit imaginative to me.. Like someone is here today and gone tomorrow, I understand what you’re saying though. But that point of view just seems I don’t know pointless to me in a way. Like its avoiding something, I’m not sure how to explain it.
Being selfless I can understand because thats a Christian principle too, dying to ones self (as symbolized by Jesus on the cross) for the benefit of others. Love, not judging(which many people get wrong) etc Also there’s less importance put on concepts of ‘you’ and ‘me’ as individuals but rather as a body of people in Christ that works together as one.
But what I’m saying and have been saying all along is that Buddhism seems to get a lot of things right but avoids or cancels out any idea of purpose or existence after Earth.
Also as far as I understand its man made belief so it seems to leave things open to personal interpretation and there are no definites which sounds a bit dodgey.
If you believe what the Bible says then you know that the words were inspired by God and written by eye witnesses.
about 2 weeks ago
Glen:
Dude, the Bible is open to personal interpretation. You only have to look at the thousands of different Christian movements!
It sounds neither here or there because in a way it is. To try to think about the meaning of life is to render life meaningless.
also, to me most religious people are not selfless, they are usually obsessed with living forever.
Also, if the Bible was written by eye witnesses, why do they all tell a different story?
Read all 4 gospels, read the ressurection accounts one at a time and write down all the accounts. They all tell different stories about it.
in the end you have to let go of the witten word dont you? even in Buddhism. It’s vital.
When you let go of ideas and concepts and just see, the things like meaning and ‘after earth’ are just meaningless and are a cause of confusion and suffering.
Glen:
*resurrection. haha!
Me:
Most of the thousands of Christian movements have one common goal some of them may be misguided however but that doesn’t mean the church is divided the key focus is still to live as Christ did.
Maybe not obsessed by living forever more like meeting God one day, think I made it pretty clear I wasn’t focused on eternity but rather present with eternity in mind.
The four gospels are obviously different accounts of people in different situations with different circumstances. Why would they put four of the same stories of the same event. Some of the accounts are more focused on the persons responses to the Crucifixion in any case.
You see I’m not “thinking about the meaning of life” I’ve found it through Christ which is why I want to spread this world view not to start an argument or condemn others lifestyle but because I want people to know Its an aid to suffering and route to understanding.
Any how its been awesome chatting, we could keep going on and on and repeat ourselves but I’ve said everything I wanted to so as I said take it or leave it and if anyone has separate questions email me but for now I’m out.. Peace 
Glen:
Don’t get me wrong, I know faith in Jesus can help people suffer less, I don’t doubt that and i have seen it in friends.
But I also know holding tightly to any belief or gospel can bring hell, including me holding this one!
Take care and nice talking to you.
If you liked this and wanna see more here’s another discussion I have going: http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=14103&post=70026&uid=201824730826#post70026
